Why Your Church Staff Is Burned Out (And What to Do About It)

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Most pastors assume burnout is a staffing problem or a workload problem. It’s not. The root cause runs much deeper than that.

In this episode, Ian and I break down the five real signs that your church staff is burning out and what you can actually do about it. Whether it’s your team, your volunteers, or even you personally, these patterns show up in churches of every size. And we’re not just diagnosing the problem. We’ve got practical solutions, too.

One thing worth noting: we’re not just talking about the senior pastor here. Church staff burnout hits worship leaders, executive pastors, children’s ministry directors, and admin teams. Ian serves as an executive pastor at his church, and he inherited a pretty healthy culture when it comes to this stuff. So we’re speaking from experience on both sides of it.

Sign 1: Everything Feels Urgent

This is the first red flag, and it’s everywhere. When the pastor is the one-man gang handling all the preaching, counseling, admin, and everything else, urgency becomes the default setting. But it’s not just solo pastors. Even churches with a full staff can fall into this trap when there are too many responsibilities, too many deadlines, and everyone is pressing, pressing, pressing all the time.

When everything is urgent, nobody gets to be great at any one thing. And that’s where the burnout starts.

I lived this firsthand. When Ian and I were planting a church together, I was working a full-time job, had little kids at home, and was trying to launch a church on top of all of it. I know what it feels like when the pace is unsustainable.

Here’s the truth: the vast majority of things can wait. 99% of your emails do not need an immediate response. Sometimes the most spiritual thing you can say is, “I don’t have the capacity for this right now.”

Ian shared a great example from his own church. They’re currently looking for a new leader for their new members class, and they may need to delay it by a few months. And that’s okay. Not every gap needs to be filled this Sunday.

Sign 2: Unclear Roles and Expectations

This one quietly destroys teams from the inside out.

Ian dealt with this head-on as an executive pastor. When he stepped into his role, he found that staff members had job descriptions that were several staffers old. People were operating off of expectations that had been set by someone who left two years ago.

So they went back to the basics. They revisited the org chart, made it a living document, and rewrote every single job description. When your team has clarity on what’s expected of them, what a “win” looks like, and what their actual goals are, it changes everything.

This is biblical, too. Think about Acts, where the apostles recognized they couldn’t do it all and delegated responsibility. Or 1 Corinthians, where Paul talks about spiritual gifts. Not everyone is gifted to do everything, and we shouldn’t expect them to be.

Sign 3: No Emotional or Spiritual Margin

Here’s one that hits pastors especially hard. You can get so caught up in doing spiritual activities for other people that you have no time left for your own spiritual growth.

At our church, we’ve carved out space during working hours for staff to invest in their own spiritual development. That’s intentional, and it matters.

Now, I’ll say something a little different from the common wisdom here. A lot of people say, “Don’t let your sermon prep be your main connection with the Lord.” I actually disagree with that. Some of my best sermons were the ones where my personal spiritual walk and my teaching preparation were overlapping. When I was genuinely wrestling with a passage for my own soul and then bringing that to the congregation, something powerful happened.

That said, prayer life is a real struggle for many pastors. Especially the driver-type personalities who tend to lead growing churches. If you’re wired to produce, it’s hard to sit still. But margin is not optional. It’s what keeps you in ministry long-term.

Sign 4: Toxic Church Culture

People never get burned out in isolation. Think about it. It’s really hard to picture a healthy church culture where the entire staff is burned out. Those two things don’t exist together.

The most common toxic pattern we see is a culture where busyness is celebrated and rewarded. When someone asks how you’re doing and you say “I’m busy” or “I’m tired,” nobody pushes back on that. In fact, they praise you for it. “Wow, you’re doing so much for the kingdom.” But being busy is not the same as being faithful.

There’s also the opposite end of the spectrum, where pastors get caught up in minutia all day long without producing anything of value. Both are toxic. Both lead to burnout.

If “busy” and “tired” are the two most common responses on your team, something needs to change.

Sign 5: The Pay Doesn’t Match the Pressure

This is a sensitive topic, but it needs to be said.

People have the wrong perception about pastor salaries. They think every pastor lives in a mansion and drives a luxury car. Maybe 1% fall into that category. Maybe 5% are really fairly compensated. The vast majority of church staff are simply not paid enough.

When you stack financial pressure on top of the emotional and spiritual weight of ministry, burnout accelerates fast.

I’ve been bivocational my entire ministry life until very recently. When I was in Hawaii, which has the highest cost of living in the country, a starting church salary was $40,000 to $50,000. Try raising a family on that in Honolulu.

Now, some pastors choose the bivocational route and it works well for them. But many become bivocational not by choice but by necessity, because the church simply won’t pay a livable wage.

And here’s what bothers me: shame on churches that have the money but don’t pay their staff well. If you have it in the budget and you’re still underpaying your team, that’s a leadership failure.

My recommendation? Shrink your staff size and pay the remaining people well. Two well-compensated, healthy staff members will outperform four underpaid, burned-out ones every time. If you want to see where your church’s compensation stacks up, check out our Church Salary Calculator.

What You Can Do About It

We didn’t want to just leave you with the problems. Here are four practical things you can start doing right now.

1. Set a Sustainable Pace

Bob Goff has this great line about quitting something every Thursday. The idea is simple: regularly evaluate what’s on your plate and have the courage to remove things that aren’t essential. You can’t add more to a full schedule without taking something away.

2. Celebrate Wins and Rest

When someone on your team says “I’m busy” or “I’m tired,” don’t congratulate them. Ask them what needs to change. Celebrate the people who take their days off. Celebrate the staff member who went home at 5:00 instead of staying until 8:00. Make rest part of the culture, not something people feel guilty about.

3. Invest in Staff Development

Give your team opportunities to grow. Training, conferences, books, learning new skills. At our church, “tenacious curiosity” is one of our core values. We want people who are always growing, and we try to give them the resources to do it. A team that’s learning is a team that stays engaged.

4. Create Permission to Be Honest

This might be the most important one. If your staff feels ashamed for admitting they’re struggling, you have a culture problem. Break down the barriers of honesty. Make it safe for someone to say, “I’m not okay right now” without it becoming a performance review.

When your team knows they can be real with you, burnout doesn’t fester in the dark. You catch it early, and you deal with it together.

The Bottom Line

Your church can’t thrive if your team is falling apart. The people serving alongside you are not just employees. They’re brothers and sisters doing kingdom work, and they deserve to be cared for.

If you recognized your church in any of these five signs, don’t wait until someone resigns to address it. Start one conversation this week. Ask your team how they’re really doing. And be willing to hear the answer.

More Resources

Most pastors assume that burnout's root

cause is something like a staffing issue

or a workload issue. But in reality,

it's something much deeper than that.

And in this conversation, Ian and I are

going to break down exactly what we see

causing burnout in churches and what you

can do about it. Let's do this.

>> Well, hey guys. I'm Thomas

>> and I'm Ian.

>> And today we're talking about why your

church staff might be burnt out and what

you can do about it. And Ian, I talk to

pastors all the time and I feel like

this is just kind of like bubbling under

the surface at so many churches. Very

few are willing to come out and say, you

know, I or my staff or my people are

burned out, but I know that it's there

and you can just kind of see some of

these telltale signs that we're going to

get into in this conversation today. So,

I think it's really important. Um, I

think it's uh something that

>> if you feel like you're at that that

kind of uh threshold, you're not alone

with that. if you're a pastor of a

church. And so I'm looking forward to

kind of digging into some of these signs

to look for. And we're not just going to

leave it with that. We have some ideas

on how you can fix it, too. So, should

be a good conversation.

>> Yeah. Really good. And you know, Thomas,

I speak to pastors every day and min and

other ministry leaders and church staff.

And I like that we're talking about the

burnout of just church staff in general.

It's not always the pastor, right?

Everyone's kind of initially thinks

that. and and there are still a lot of

senior pastors that are kind of the

oneman gang at their church and all

that. We're going to get into all these

reasons, but uh yeah, there's uh of

course uh at a lot of healthy churches

now, there's obviously several leaders

doing a lot of different things. So,

should be a great topic. You're right.

>> I think so, too. So, yeah, just for

reference, uh I am an executive pastor

at my church. And so, this is something

that I try to monitor. Uh, and I I can

say this, like there's all kinds of

things that we're not great at at our

church, but I think in this area, and

it's not even a credit to myself. I

think I inherited a very healthy church

in this area with when it comes to uh

toxic or like, you know, just kind of

burnout culture and those things. So, I

I think we're in a special place to talk

about it. Um, yeah. And I'll give you

some of my insights with things, but why

don't you kick us off, Ian, with the

first one. Uh, what's the first kind of

sign? I like the first one we're kicking

it off with is that everything feels

urgent. Um, and again, you know, when I

was just mentioning like the pastor

who's the oneman gang and has to get

everything done, they're the ones doing

all the preaching and counseling to

members and all of that. But it's not

just that. It's especially if you have a

staff and numerous, you know,

responsibilities and things that are

expected and deadlines and all of that.

uh if if we're always pressing pressing

pressing and all this has to get done

then no one's good in any one thing and

then they get burned out I think so

yeah.

>> Yeah. So, I've been in that role before.

You and I, we met as uh I was planting a

church and you came on and became my

associate pastor when we did that. And

it was a great season. And I I remember

just

>> that was absolutely what my life looked

like, working full-time, planting a

church, and everything had to be done in

a small window. You and I both had very

little kids, and we're our wives were

having more kids as we were juggling a

lot doing it. So,

>> yeah. But my goodness, like this is

something that is so common, like where

you just feel that way. And I guess for

me, um, you got to get to that point, I

guess, at some point where and and with

almost everything, we need to realize

that it's not as urgent as we probably

think that it is. Like getting that

stuff done, getting that email responded

to or that text message immediately

responded to or whatever, it has to be

done like getting that website update

done really quick or, you know, there

there's a few things where the show must

go on and you have to keep going. So

your if it's if it's Saturday night and

your sermon's not written yet, well,

yeah, that's kind of urgent, I guess, at

that point. But I have to say that like

the vast majority of things,

>> they can wait. Like the the email um

most of them, if you look through your

inbox, 99% of your emails don't need an

immediate response. You know, if someone

just passed away in your church and you

got a text about it, you probably have

to deal with some of those things. But I

think we just have this habit of making

everything something that has to be

dealt with urgently. And then here's

something else I learned is that

>> like sometimes it's okay just to say I

don't have the capacity to do this in

this season or right now. And so unless

we find somebody else to do it, it might

not just get done the same way anymore.

So, you know, we have these kinds of

conversations around our staff all the

time. We're, you know, wrestling right

now with uh finding a new leader for our

new members class. So, this is something

that's really important to us and we do

feel like that's something we have to

do, but like we like we we can't just

kind of add it to everybody's plate of

who's already serving at our church. We

have to actually come up with a solution

that uh is that we just have to do it in

the right time. Like, we have to find

the right people. And actually, we might

need to delay it by a few months if we

can't get our stuff together. And that's

okay. Uh, and I think it just is uh kind

of part of being a healthy church.

>> Yep. No, that's good. And I know we're

going to give solutions here, I think,

uh, towards the end. So, uh, we'll get

more into to that. Yeah. So, the next

one's a good one, too, Thomas, that, you

know, for your staff, there's unclear

roles and expectations.

Uh, I know that you experienced this. uh

you know, obviously you and I have been

working together as we served on uh

staff together at at our old church that

you just mentioned, but I've you've kept

me in the loop with every church now

recently you coming back to Hawaii. Not

recently, I guess it's been several

years now, but uh yeah, that was one of

the things that you ran into, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I've been on staff

at the church that I'm at now as the

executive pastor for two years now. And

I think we inherited a few challenges

when it came to this particular issue is

that, um, you know, I and this is there

there was this stuff in place, but I

just didn't think people really lived by

it and it was like several staff members

old. So, we have like So, I guess we're

talking about things like people really

understanding what their role is, what

the expectations are, and those are

things that need to be documented. So,

it's things like having a clear org

chart of how your organization is set up

and who reports to who and having really

clear job description documents that

people know and you probably it a lot of

times people will treat a church job

description as something that you give

it to somebody when they first get hired

or come on the team and then 11 years

later you haven't even referenced it

even once and it's totally out of date.

So, we're in the habit, one of the first

things I did at this church was we we

went and we took a look at the org chart

and actually used it as a living

document. We moved it around. Every time

we make a change, we'll change it on the

org chart and make sure everybody sees

exactly how we're set up. And then one

really important thing I did is we we

revisited and kind of rewrote

everybody's job description of what kind

of is expected of them. What are the

wins? I'm doing a good job if I get this

stuff done. Here's kind of my goals. We

took a look at all those things. And I

got to tell you, having that clarity on

our team of knowing what is expected of

me, what what do I have to do to be

successful in this role? I know it might

sound a little bit corporate, but for

churches especially, I think it's really

valuable to have that information

because we somehow think we're

susceptible to we're not susceptible to

getting burned out because uh you know,

we're I don't know, more spiritual than

other people. But having those things in

order uh super helpful, I would say. So

just a couple of ideas

>> and it's biblical uh you know it's

actually I I've been reading through the

book of acts right now in my devotion

and reminded me of uh yeah one of the

beginning chapters not remembering the

exact chapter but when the apostles

needed to dedicate themselves to the

word right and the preaching of the the

word and so they set roles and people to

be able to help the widows and all of

that and then you see it in uh you know

Corinthians with spiritual gifts not

everyone's gifted to do everything right

and and there are certain tasks and

things that that just certain people

aren't good at. So, uh so that's a big I

think another big part of it. So, but

next one, no emotional or spiritual

margin. What do we mean by this?

>> Yeah, I just think that um a lot of

times and this is so true like that

pastors get so caught up in doing

spiritual activities, they don't have

time to pour into their own spiritual

growth and actually spending time with

the Lord themselves. And I know I've

been a pastor for long enough to know

that you've heard this before. There's

nothing new with this here. Like, but

just really making that a part of the

culture of your church where there is

space. And I'd even say at our church,

what we do is we have space carved out

in working hours that people can invest

in just their own spiritual development

and growth and those kinds of areas. So,

that's good. That's good. Yeah. again

like you can't go to a pastor's

conference or anything nowadays and not

hear that the importance of that. And in

fact, I actually kind of disagree with

some of the common wisdom on this. One

thing that people told me all the time

in ministry was don't let your sermon

prep be the the main way you connect

with the Lord.

>> And I get that like I I I don't disagree

with that by itself. But what I found as

someone who preached on a weekly basis

at seasons of my life and have done this

many hundreds of times,

>> my sermons and my spiritual walk were

best when those two things were one

together. When I let the word that I was

going to be teaching on for that week,

really permeate my heart, uh,

prayerfully consider it. Let God do a

work in me, examine my own heart with

the very application and conviction that

I hope other people have, examining my

own heart with it. Those were my best

sermons and I grew the most at when I

was pastoring doing that. So, I'm kind

of against the conventional wisdom on

that of don't let your sermons and your

quiet times overlap. But at the same

time, I get the heart behind it. You

don't want it to only be about the study

and the the the practice of writing and

those things. But I do think that it's

important that you you really find time

to find margin and space for both your

emotions and your spiritual development

for any church staff member.

>> Yeah, you covered a lot there and that's

good. And and I also something that

we've realized for years now is that a

lot of pastors, they have a rough prayer

life and don't spend enough time in

prayer because they're always planning,

right? And they're always, you know,

they have the next thing. And if in and

even with sermon prep, you know, if

you're not inviting the Holy Spirit in

and if you're just not having your own

personal time as well with the Lord, you

know, just nurturing your relationship

with him. So, I think the prayer thing

I've heard of uh is a real big deal with

a lot of pastors and we've seen statist

statistical dat I I know it is for me

like I know that that's my like in my

spiritual walk. I think that's probably

where I struggle the most is just having

a fruitful

>> prayer life where I have just time set

aside to really carve into that. So

yeah, I think that most pastors,

especially those that are drivers or the

type that really uh, you know, leading

growing churches, I see this problem

over and over again in that capacity.

But we cannot abdicate that

responsibility and privilege that we

have to sit before the creator of the

world and pray. That's right. Yeah. Good

stuff, Ian. Absolutely. And then uh next

one's a toxic c sorry a toxic church

culture creates burnout. Um yeah and I

think this is something a lot of

churches don't realize is happening

within. Um and and you know I you know

it because there's sometimes just the

red flags or or because of leadership

and certain things that are being done

uh you know maybe from a higher level

from the senior pastor coming down. Not

to say uh toxic culture is all the

senior pastor's fault, but things

trickle down, right? And decisions that

are made can often, you know, trickle

down. Uh and so I know this is a big

one, too. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It totally is. And I think that

like I don't know. I think what we one

thing we kind of were thinking about

when we said this is that like never do

people get burned out just in isolation.

Like and I I'm trying to think of a

church culture that was really healthy

and the staff was all burned out. Like

[laughter] I can't those things very

rarely go together.

>> Um some of the things I see I actually

see churches on both sides of this here.

So I think the more common thing that I

see is that in churches the staff is

just so busy uh and has so much on their

plate and they don't take time. Like

there's a there's almost a a culture

where that is something that is

celebrated and rewarded and honored when

people talk about how busy they are. So

like I know that they say that like

that's the most common response like the

two most common responses to hey how are

you doing is I'm busy or I'm tired. Like

that's the two things people say most

>> and I [clears throat] think that's s

such an American issue where like we

just

>> is probably number one.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think what it is is that

like nobody will ever fault you for

that. People actually kind of praise you

for that. They go, "Oh man, yeah, Ian is

really a busy guy. I probably ought to

back off a little bit and he's doing a

good job cuz he's staying really busy."

When really that's not necessarily

healthy. It isn't. In most cases, if

you're constantly busy and that's making

you tired, that's an issue you need to

work out, not something to be

celebrated. And I find that's a really

common thing in toxic church cultures is

that there's this celebration of

busyiness when really that's that's not

healthy. There is the opposite end too

where I have seen this in pastors that

get so caught up in minutia that they

like just make themselves busy or even

like aren't really producing anything

and are comfortable with that. That's a

less frequent problem I would say. But

both of those are toxic cultures and I

think both of those can lead to burnout.

I've seen people burned out when you

actually look at them and like their

actual productivity isn't ultra high.

Like you can be burned out and not be

accomplishing much. And in fact, burnout

leads to accomplishing less in most

cases, I would say. So, uh I think a

toxic culture is a huge part of this.

>> Yeah. And how much does it stink to be

busy but not seeing fruit and results?

Uh yeah. And so that reminded me too,

Thomas, of whenever I became a new

believer. I was chuckling because I

remember uh that uh I was just a simple

conversation with another new believer

and I was like in my early 20s when I

was saved and he was in my like Sunday

school class at the Southern Baptist

church I was saved at. But this guy

remember we were talking about knowing

that you're in God's will. And he goes,

"You know, they just say if you're doing

a whole lot, I've heard and if you're

not in God's will, you get really

tired."

[laughter]

>> And it was just a simple saying, but it

always it stuck with me just because it

was like they say, you know, you get

really tired if you're and and it

basically just meant like striving and

trying too hard to do all of this and

and you weren't you were not good at

anything and you get tired and burned

out. Yeah, it's funny. Um, so last one,

big one, too. The pay doesn't match the

pressure. The Yeah, the not just a

pastor's pay, but staff um doesn't match

the pressure that they have for their

duties. Yeah,

>> bro. This is such a sensitive topic to

talk about because we're going to get

talked about in the comments on these

kinds of episodes whenever we talk about

pastor's pay.

>> Like, you have people that usually

aren't that like close to people that

are in ministry. Yeah. They have this

totally wrong perception of every single

pastor is uh a like lives in a mansion

and they're taking advantage of tax

codes and living on tithes and private

like really rich when I think everybody

who's been in ministry or knows pastors

personally know that that's almost never

the case. You know, at best like there

may be 1% of pastors that are in that

category I just mentioned. Yeah,

>> there's maybe 5% of pastors that are

really fairly compensated and blessed

and doing well. The vast majority of

pastors, I think, are not paid enough.

And that's the more common issue. And

I'm just going to come out and say that.

>> So, this is like I I wish this wasn't

the case because like you see in

scripture um just you know people

there's commands that we're to be like

comfortable with what we have and just

you know be content with what we make in

those things. But there are just certain

financial pressures and realities that

families have to live with. And this, to

be totally honest, is one of the leading

causes of burnout for pastors and church

staff is just that it's really hard to

make ends meet. And the financial

pressure that you have

>> on top of your work responsibilities

just really piles on there. So, I know

this um I know that at my I've been only

by vocational in in my entire life and

now I'm at a place where I can do

ministry uh and not have it be a

financial burden because of what God's

done at Reachrite in these things here

and we're very thankful for that. Um

that's been really good. But I do see

especially young ministers where I am

here in Hawaii where we have the highest

cost of living of any state in the

country. Like

>> our wages aren't really high either. So

like an average starting salary at a

church is probably around between4 and

$50,000 for a full-time employee. And

that's really really hard to make ends

meet in Hawaii on that kind of an income

here. So

>> hard to make ends meet in Austin, Texas.

Yeah. So

>> yeah. No, it's hard to make ends Yeah.

Anywhere I think on that. Hawaii is uh

it's it's almost like impossibly hard to

do that without you know you're uh you

know you have lots of other people

working in your household and that kind

of stuff then it might work. But

>> that's just the reality of it though.

That's the the situation and that is

something that uh does drive a lot of

people out of ministry does drive

burnout and something that I think

churches need to really consider. Um, I

I have long been an advocate of

shrinking staff sizes of churches,

>> expecting a little bit more and having

really high performers and paying them

well. Not extravagantly, but well,

paying them in line with kind of the,

you know, the the comparison. And we

have a really great salary calculator I

can leave a link to uh in our

description. We built one that took a

bunch of different church compensation

studies and compared them uh and it'll

kind of give you a breakdown on how much

your church should be paying for that

role in that area um based on experience

and education and all those things. So

check that out. But I just know um that

yeah, most churches need to step up in

this area. Most churches need to step

forward and invest more. And they're

better off if you hire fewer people and

pay them better.

>> Yeah. Let me say this too. Like we

recently had without mentioning their

name a uh pastor move forward with our

services here at Reachite and he paid

for it out of his own pocket. Now he's

bivocational and let me just say this,

we are all for bivocational pastors like

you said Thomas, you've been one. I've

been one before. And then also just, you

know, if that's your calling and what

God's leading you to, great. But here's

what I kind of want to say, and I, this

might sound a little harsh, but shame on

the church that has the money to pay the

pastor well, but doesn't or pay them

sufficiently. And and here's why. I've

come across a lot of pastors that over

the years, they become bivocational

because of they're not paid enough. So,

it's not like something they necessarily

wanted to do or felt called to do, but

had to do. And then on top of that, they

became, and this is another subject we

won't get too deep into, they also

became this so that they can just make

decisions for their church [laughter]

because it wasn't coming out of and

we're all for we know there's boards,

there's there's councils, there's all

we're all for accountability, but it's

so sad to me when I see a pastor have to

do that to also move forward the growth

of their church because there's some

stubborn board that just is sitting on a

pile of money and not doing anything

about it and investing in their

leadership and growing the church. So,

I'll stop there, but it is a part of the

burnout thing and also just, you know,

where I see a lot of pastors landing.

So, um

>> that is hard. Yeah, I I have talked to a

lot of our our clients that are I would

say a lot, but there's a there's a solid

chunk of them that are in that kind of a

position there. And

>> yeah, we just want health for churches

and pastors. So, we had some ideas, I

guess, on what churches can do to kind

of overcome some of these things. Uh,

there's just a few of them. Do you want

to kind of give them some of those

ideas?

>> Yeah, we're just going to rattle these

off and and talk a little bit about

them. But we Yeah. So, to kind of

address, you want to set a sustainable

pace. Again, if you're feeling too

urgent, all of that, what's sustainable?

What can people handle? uh you know what

can they actually carry out based on

other demands and time to and and again

if you're if you don't have a

sustainable pace and if people are

rushed they're not going to do the best

ministry work anyway right so

sustainable pace uh is the first one

yeah I'm going to butcher this but I

remember uh I read I've I've followed

Bob Goff for a long time the author

who's fantastic uh this has a way with

words but he was really famous and

inspiring to me when he says he tries to

quit something every day uh that he

that's one of his goals is to quit more

things. And so the power of no

>> if you're uh feeling like you're not

able to sustain your space, maybe you

need to quit something in the kind of

allab golf there. So

>> I like this next one too. Celebrate wins

and rest periods. Again,

>> acknowledge your staff when there is a

win. When they kind of need a break,

celebrate that, right? Give them give

them that break, that rest so that they

continue to stay productive. Yeah. Yeah,

maybe a habit is like when someone says,

"I'm busy or I'm tired." Like maybe just

have a culture at your church where you

ask people, "Oh, what do we need to what

do we need to change to kind of get you

out of that place?" So, doing that kind

of a checkup would be good there. Yeah.

>> Or have CS and send them to nap time uh

No, don't do that. So, invest in staff

development and you know, again, when

you know, develop your staff like

>> who who else can you bring on or also do

they just need training in something? do

they need to take time to go learn a

certain skill in ministry or whatever it

would be. So, another big one, if you're

not investing in your leaders and your

staff and the people that serve uh for

their growth and

>> well being Yeah. Yeah. I

>> I'd say just like that it's we're in a

time where this doesn't it's not

expensive anymore. Like content is

effectively free. You're watching this

podcast or listening to it. This doesn't

cost anything. Hopefully, you're

learning something from it. Uh we have a

value here at Reachite and I kind of

bring this to my church too, but

tenacious curiosity is one of our values

here and we just encourage people to

always be developing, always be learning

more, always be hungry to do that. So

try to bake that into your church staff

culture. I think that is a great way to

resist burnout temptation.

>> That's good stuff. Good stuff. So um oh

and I guess we have one more. Create

permission to be honest. So that's I

think this is huge a good one to end on.

someone's burned out, you better you

need to know it. Like don't have your

staff feel ashamed or like uh you know

in danger of losing the favor or the

position or the title that they have

because they're just tired and you know

need a break or need to do something

else or or delegate something to someone

else. Absolutely.

>> Yeah. It's really tricky because like

you know you I know I've been in

ministry long enough and like admitting

and confessing your sins uh to your

counsel or the people that maybe hold

the keys to your employment and that

kind of stuff is really hard. Uh but you

you just need to kind of maybe take baby

steps towards breaking down those

barriers of being honest on uh little

things at a time. I know it's kind of

hard to come out completely and just

come to your council or your board and

say I'm burnt out. um I need a break or

you know I'm struggling with this area

or our culture is toxic here. But um I

think just getting over that hump and

starting that and having the courage to

have those conversations. I rarely hear

of that ending poorly for people and I

know at our church like it's been so

like it's the this is the openest and

most honest church I've ever been a part

of and it's really been life-giving for

me I would say too. So yeah, good stuff

Ian.

>> Yes sir.

>> Awesome. I hope this has been helpful

for you. I'd love to hear kind of uh if

you see any other symbols of burnout

that you see out there or maybe what

your church has done to kind of get you

some more margin as a leader in your

church. I'd love it if you'd leave a

comment about that down below. Also,

make sure to check out that pastor

salary calculator. I hope it's a help to

you. Thanks for being part of the

retried family and we'll see you next

time. See up.